The Taproom

This topic has 6,719 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 7 months ago by Barliman.

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October 23, 2009 at 3:01 pm #7485
Gavin
Participant
And the new newsletter is out and the Christmas bonus figure is:

Broggha the Hillman chieftain.

This Broggha, the Hillman chieftain, one assumes:
http://www.theonering.com/articles1-19189/TheRiseandFallofCalimendilFifthKingofCardolanComprisingthewarbetweenCardolanandRhudaurandthesubsequentdisasterofCamethBrinCHAPTERSEVEN

(Must bookmark this page, there seems to be usefulness here)
October 23, 2009 at 4:30 pm #7486
Gildor
MMP Elder
Correct me if I am wrong but…

it seems that this Broggha is a pure non-canon character.. I can’t see him anywhere in any tolkien works…

that’s odd to have a “non-canon” tolkien NAMED figurine for a Christmas figurine… quite odd
October 23, 2009 at 4:59 pm #7487
Gavin
Participant
He is almost certainly a MERP creation. But I need to double check this – he’s a MERP naming of an actual character in the Legendarium.

So…a bit of both.

But we must remember where Mithril came from: MERP

Gavin
October 23, 2009 at 6:21 pm #7488
ddaines
Participant
Gildor Inglorion wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but…

it seems that this Broggha is a pure non-canon character.. I can’t see him anywhere in any tolkien works…

that’s odd to have a “non-canon” tolkien NAMED figurine for a Christmas figurine… quite odd

There is a Brodda (easterling) mentioned in Unfinished Tales (and probably elsewhere), but unless a deliberate miss-spelling to get around a license issue which would seem odd anyway, as Gavin says……. MERP?
October 23, 2009 at 6:31 pm #7490
Gildor
MMP Elder
well maybe MERP yes, I saw occurences of him in the Rhudaur tales but this tale is “non canon”… anyway this is not a mithril invention…. but well

even if it is MERP… I find it odd to put a MERP fig for Xmas… unless there is another explanation… if it is not covered by Tolkien Enterprise licence and is thus free of copyright that would allow mithril to be able to sell it in time for christmas (without having to submit it to Tolkien Enterprise…)
October 23, 2009 at 6:48 pm #7491
Barliman
Participant
That’s a good bit of lateral thinking, Master Gildor, and just cynical enough to probably contain a grain of truth. I too immediately thought of ‘Brodda’ when I saw the Newsletter. It’s a name which adeptly (or slyly?) makes him sound like a Tolkien character without actually being one. Very adroit. But either way, the character has the potential to make a nice figure at The Man’s hands.
October 23, 2009 at 9:18 pm #7492
Theobald
Participant
Huoooommmmrhuoommm … I think the figure is based on MERP, though I cannot proove this right away … rhuoomm … Rhudaur could be a clue …. hom … as far as I can remember ‘The Man’ was working on a series of those figures a long time ago …. rhuoommm … but I don’t remember well … hom
Anyway, I’m glad to hear about another Christmas Figure being released as keeping alive an old Mithril tradition … rhuooomhom … without me having to pester Master O’Brian again with many questions about a new Christmas Figure … huooommm … this year I didn’t have to … hom
as for being canonical or non-canonical, well, Master Gildor, I don’t mind … huomm … I’m sure Sarsfield and King Arthur really were non-canonical …. huooommmm …. in spite of that they are Christmas Figures, aren’t they? … huooommm …
As for the name it just comes to my mind that Broggha is named a Hillman and so should be considered as having lived in the North of the Shire … rhuoommm … as for Brodda we know he’s from the East and also being a character mentioned in the Silmarillion and ‘The children of Hurin’ … rhuoommm … I think it’s just coincidence the names sound so similar … rhuoomm
October 23, 2009 at 10:38 pm #7494
Gavin
Participant
My one reservation is that we now have about five Dunnish/Hillmen chieftains floating about: the figure from the Arnorian Knight [mith]MS499[/mith], the Helm’s Deep Dunnish Chieftain [mith]LT12[/mith], the original [mith]M8[/mith] Dunnish Chieftain, Menoib [mith]M170[/mith] and now this bloke. Not that I am really complaining, but it is interesting.

Anyway, I’d be happy with a quasi canonical figure for Christmas
October 24, 2009 at 5:35 am #7497
protozeus
Participant
Hillmen of the Trollshaws (ICE 8040)

A third story tells of the desperate attempts to rescue the Princess Alquawen from the clutches of King Broggha and the Evil Elfmaiden, Korékalwen, in T.A. 1671. (p.5)
…
Broggha, although quite young, proved himself a fierce warrior and a wise leader in the recent Hillmen revolt, and thus no one was surprised that he became Targ-Arm, their acknowledged leader. Despite the fact that he is odd by Hillmen standards he commands tremendous respect. He stands over 6′ tall indicating that he has some Dúnedain blood. This supports his brash claim to be descended from an illegitimate daughter of one of the Dúnedain Kings, a story which no one disputes in his presence. As Targ-Arm, Broggha maintains the appearance of a warrior of the old ways. Yet his demeanor is a facade, for Broggha’s dreams are not limited to ruling a free and unmolested Rhudaur. Broggha was educated in the lore of the Dúdnedain, and perhaps this knowledge stirs his blood, for he longs to be King of lands and peoples far beyond the borders of Rhudaur. (pp. 32-33)
…
October 24, 2009 at 7:55 am #7498
Gildor
MMP Elder
ok so this is from ICE/MERP

well I’ll live with it indeed…. though King Arthur is from a “canon” mythology (outside of tolkien) and Sarsfield is an historical character… but ICE are “invented” characters extrapolated from a litterary work, by other people than the writer himselfe (it’s not the place for such debate I just want to quote what I mean by “non-canon” I did not mean non-canon to Mithril at all but to Tolkien works)

Hillmen and Dunland men are not the same though… Though esthetically they could be similar, they are not from the same place…

Anyway , as you say, it is good to have a Xmas figurine (even if not 54mm… even if not canon… even if… what else?) I’m sure the man will make it beautiful
October 24, 2009 at 4:19 pm #7508
Theobald
Participant
Huoommm … I just guessed that Broggha is a MERP character … and so it was prooved here … huom …. huooomm … I feel very much pleased that you, Master Gildor, feel fine with him as a Christmas Figure (especially imagining ‘The Man’s’ interpretation of such a figure) … rhuoommm
… why isn’t the ‘Pony’ a place to discuss such matters … should we only stand around here discussing the quality of Master Barliman’s brews … ?
Yes, Padraig Sarsfield is an historical character, as all Irish know … rhuoommm … we also know that the character of King Arthur is based on myths – though there is a hidden historical background (lost in the ‘Dark Ages’) … hooommm … so there were Hillmen in Tolkien’s world – of course being to be taken as very different from those Dunlendings because of their origin, as you said, Master Gildor … huoom …
just to cut it short … rhuoommm, ahem … I’m glad about a new Christmas Figure (though again a small one in size) being released again … rhuoommm … the last two tiny ones are great …
rhuoommmm … I always thought that it’s better to have a Christmas with a Christmas figure than not having a figure without Christmas … rhuoommm … if you know what I mean … huoom
October 24, 2009 at 5:17 pm #7511
Gavin
Participant
Well, according to the good professor, the Hillmen, Dunmen, the People of Bree and the dead men of the White Mountains are all of the same kindred. So there’s been a bit of conflation between Hillmen and Dunmen.

Anyway, I’m still fairly certain that this is a MERP naming of an unnamed canonical character – the leader of the Hillmen who led his armies against the Dunedain of Rhudaur. Quotes and so forth will show up later.

Odd how that wicked Elf maiden character did not show up in the later Arnor book

Gavin
October 24, 2009 at 6:01 pm #7512
Theobald
Participant
Huommm … I’m sure that Master Gavin can provide better answers and proove them … much more better than me … rhuoommm … he’s an expert about these matters, I think …. homm … so I will stay away of this as I also have to care about different things, such as riddles, vignettes, and things like that … huoommm
October 24, 2009 at 7:29 pm #7516
Gavin
Participant
From Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, pp 1052 (2002 edition, Alan Lee illustration)

In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dunedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hillmen, who was in secret league with Angmar. Argeleb therefore fortified the Weather Hills, but he was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar

And thus, ladies and gentleman, we have Broggha. The name is invented. The character is not.

Of course, there have been other Brogghas. Broggha is also a villainous Hillman from the default 1640s MERP setting.

Also: out of pure fiat, I am giving the name Broggha to the chief of the Hillmen of Rhudaur during the last northern war. So Broggha can be used as any and all of these characters.

I will write up all three Brogghas for The Court of Ardor once the serial number and picture has been released. Or in the aftermath of such an occurrence.

Gavin
October 24, 2009 at 9:42 pm #7518
Wendy
Participant
Not to change the subject, but is there any scholarly discussion on the shape of mallorn leaves? Like the most functional shape for wrapping lembas and such? I’m doing some sculpting and really don’t want to make it the same shape as the movie folk did.
October 25, 2009 at 12:13 am #7520
Gavin
Participant
I’ll have a look for you Ms. Wendy and see what I can come up with.
October 25, 2009 at 6:37 am #7522
Barliman
Participant
Won’t any interpretation/invention regarding the shape of a mallorn leaf depend in a large part on what shape and size a wafer of lembas was? – and I’m not sure that JRRT ever gave us any clues on that score, other than that they were ‘very thin’. Or does someone know otherwise?
October 25, 2009 at 7:58 am #7524
protozeus
Participant
Gavin wrote:

I will write up all three Brogghas for The Court of Ardor once the serial number and picture has been released. Or in the aftermath of such an occurrence.

Interesting findings – also a timeline concerning those characters might be very useful, to prevent utter confusion.
October 25, 2009 at 10:29 am #7525
Theobald
Participant
Huoommm … about the shape of them leaves I’d guess it might be similar to those of “Telperion” who is a silver-leaved maple (acer saccarium) … rhuoommm … so those ‘very thin’ lembas could be wrapped in such a leave easily … huoommm … but I’m not really sure about it …. hom
Master Gavin, thank you for quoting from that source … rhuooom … besides being a skilled artisan you’re an expert in MERP and Tolkien things, as we all know … rhuoommm
October 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm #7528
ddaines
Participant
Wendy wrote:

Not to change the subject, but is there any scholarly discussion on the shape of mallorn leaves? Like the most functional shape for wrapping lembas and such? I’m doing some sculpting and really don’t want to make it the same shape as the movie folk did.

[imgz url=http://mmp.faerylands.eu/uploads/11_mallorn_tree.jpg]http://mmp.faerylands.eu/uploads/thumbs/11_mallorn_tree.jpg[/imgz]

Wendy, hope this helps, ‘Straight from the horses mouth’ so to speak. From Pictures, by JRR Tolkien, it states that these are crayon drawings of Mallorn trees.

Dave
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