C. Tubb Mithril auctions and Recast/Pirating

MMP Mithril in Middle-Earth The Marketplace of Tharbad C. Tubb Mithril auctions and Recast/Pirating

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  • #10754
    twrich
    Participant

      There have been many good comments made here about this subject. And I agree that some of my opinions were not worded properly–especially the reference to half-orcs; I regret that. Rather I should have let Chris’s words speak for themselves. Also, I agree that there is a possibility that those who don’t speak English as a first language are often misunderstood. So perhaps the posts of ESTEL were harmless. But this issue is beyond the posts quoted above, and Chris has asked to have his views expressed. I did that as best I could, although not perfectly.

      Now I will hazard a couple more thoughts. These are my own, although I don’t think Chris would disagree.

      If a figure is owned by a person, they can convert it in any way they want. However, if they sell it they should explain the conversion and not represent it as an original.

      If a figure is owned by a person and they recast it for their own use, I’m not sure how that can be prevented. But those copies might one day make it to the marketplace and it is up to the recaster to make sure that they are easily identified as recasts. Perhaps this could be managed, I don’t know. For those that I was fortunate to receive, I have scratched “recast” on them. Perhaps others would do the same.

      In no case should any recast ever be sold. I would say the same for a gift of an original rare piece, but a gift is owned by the person receiving it. I guess it is up to those who receive these gifts to honor them and he who gave them.

      Ours is a great group of people, and we have a common passion. I hope that we will begin to see some of these fabulous figures soon. We just need to act responsibly with his creations.

      #10755
      Thingol
      Participant

        Beautiful small diorama in natural surroundings…. Master Estele… it look like is from the “grandma’s garden” :)

        …… ! each shock brings enlightenment and it is always best way to resume a normal life. It is only important to accept and understand this…. !

        #10756
        Kenakko
        Participant

          Quite the babe there ESTEL. Please don’t go anywhere. Not with work like this! We’re all friends here are we not? Anyway, if anyone wants perspective on all of this I will suggest the wise course of asking one’s wife (or Significant other) what they really think of our little hobbies! Mine simply calls it all Otaku and puts up with it realizing it keeps me off the streets! But more on the topic I think I would agree with what twrich suggested as a course for responsible collectors. I would add that we, the collectors, are also among the experts about these things and can use our knowledge to help prevent what Chris fears-the exploitation of both new and established collectors. I don’t think this will be much of a problem as suspcious eBay sellers are identified and boycotted. If it were Ming dynasty vases, who the seller is would make all the difference…

          #10757
          Barliman
          Participant

            Since my initial comment here much more has been said and suggested, and I agree with many of the additional comments. One very valid point that comes out in several of the more recent remarks is that it shouldn’t be thought that any MMP member has deliberately set out to mislead, cheat or profit from The Man’s work.

            The same is not true, however, of the eBay pirates, who are an entirely different issue. As we all know, we have one member who has cast various bits on occasion to help out fellow enthusiasts, and it doesn’t seem to me that it would be fair or reasonable to tar him with the same brush as, say, a Dritz – always assuming that Dritz is recasting anyway (does anyone know categorically that he is?) – or anyone who sets out to deceive for cash. No one, as far as I’m aware, has ever thrown up their hands in dismay and said to our caster “Oh no, you can’t do that!” But many of us have doubtless benefitted from his kindness over the past couple of years, including me. When I couldn’t get hold of a couple of extra out-of-production figures – and I emphasise out-of-production – I needed for wargaming purposes, and mentioned it in The Pony, the next thing I knew was them arriving in an envelope on my doorstep – no money was asked for, and there was no intention of stealing Chris’s copyright or depriving anyone of any income. It was simply an act of generosity and kindness.

            Not only that, but the couple of figures I got have now been hacked about and converted to stand proudly in the ranks of my army. They no longer look anything like Mithrils and will never find their way back into the market-place. More to the point, perhaps, if I hadn’t got them I’d have had to hack up originals instead – the only effect of which would have been to further reduce their availability for collectors and push the price of any surviving originals Dritzwards.

            I guess what I’m saying is that at the end of the day I hope common sense and fairness will prevail and there are no witch-hunts.

            We all share in our love of The Man’s work, and Mithrils are genuinely one of the great joys in my life.

            #10761
            Kenakko
            Participant

              Here ,here! Such an eloquent barkeep. That calls for a scrumpy toast!

              #10763
              Gildor
              MMP Elder

                I’d like to clarify that I don’t plan to do any witch-hunt myself :)
                we are all gentlement and I am sure everything can be solved up easily. the main problem is, and remains Ebay…

                What Holger does or has done is very kind and I would never blame him, but it’s just about being careful :)

                #10764
                hsf62
                Participant

                  What can I say, very interesting. Thank you Master Barliman for your words.
                  Oh, before I forget, of course Chris knew for quite some time I had recasted Mithril, because I send a recasted M239 Orodreth of Nargothrond to him to show him the quality of casting I am able to do. Isn’t that right Chris?

                  #10765
                  Turambar
                  Participant

                    I think there is no need to state that Master Caster will N O T make profits of his re-or-whatever-casts !
                    For me he is unimpeachable, and I will say no more else to this point.
                    The name Dritzzz: I can not find it in our user list . . .

                    #10766
                    Milo
                    Participant

                      Even if I am a new member here, I totaly agree that Master Caster higher skills have nothing to do with any kind of business.

                      I shall rest in pony for a while now.

                      #10770
                      Barliman
                      Participant

                        I think we all should.

                        #10785
                        twrich
                        Participant

                          This is news to me Holger about sending Chris a copy of a recast. And as I said before, I have no idea what your past relationship with Chis is. Also, Holger, he has been told by me (and others I believe) that I have NEVER heard of you to ask for money or sell recasts for a profit–that you were just helping out friends. Chris has told me that he believe that is most likely true. But when he sees fake rare Galadriels being sold on eBay, and then talk of recasting Dwar, well I guess that is different than a shield here or a sword there. But NO ONE is accusing you of putting them on eBay. However, you can’t assure that a recast you give away won’t end up there–that is the issue.

                          As said before, there is recasting to help friends; then there is outright thievery. Chris deosn’t believe that any of us at MMP fall into the second catagory. But as Gildor has said, these are public forums and anyone can “listen in,” so to say.

                          I was just asked to deliver a mesage and did so, but with too much of my own opinion in the emotions at the momment I posted the thread unfortunately. I am going to delete the reference to half-orcs, as it is really unfair, not to deny that I made that mistake, but as another member noted, it really doesn’t help resolve the situation.

                          Holger, perhaps you could reach out to Chris and establish some guidelines. He did not suggest this to me, and perhaps that relationship is too strained, I don’t know . . . . But I do know you have been very helpful in the past, especially with new collectors who buy an item thinking it is complete, only to find a piece missing. Perhaps you could ask for permission to just recast spare parts? Or perhaps he would be satisfied if you promised to stamp “RECAST” on the bottom of your bases. Again, he may so “no” to all of it. But good communication is essential, I think, in overcoming this issue.

                          Let’s figure out a way to address his concerns and assure that we can continue to see more Mithrils for years to come.

                          #10786
                          Gildor
                          MMP Elder

                            this is wise… very wise…

                            and as Barliman said we should just all take a rest and have a nice COLD drink (without alcohol to be sure we don’t deviate…) and have a seat altogether…

                            As I said, solutions do exist… both in communication, in helping one another without risking piracy, and about selling and adressing piracy to true collectors…

                            the real problem here is Ebay itself… not a given person…

                            Some among us may remember that when gifts or sales were made by the man in the past, directly from seller to buyer without ebay there was no piracy problem… the piracy problem began with the auctions…

                            There may be drizzt around there… but there are others rich person who speculate, buy originals at heavy prices to copy… and since we don’t have the names of the buyers anymore… we can’t know…

                            so let’s all calm down and wait a bit…. I think this advice should apply to ALL members of this forum :)
                            (including myself)

                            #10795
                            Thingol
                            Participant

                              …. as you write in the beginning Master Gildor… wise… very wise… and I hope our friend Master Holger would find a right word to establish fair relationship with Chris… I don’t think that tis is unexplainable situation this is just misunderstood between Master Holger generosity and point of piracy, and Holger is definitely not man who want to make money through sending recast especially if we know that he has great talent to make great conversions using magnificent figures made by mr. Tubb …. and this is definitely not the same, piracy is to hard word for our colleague …

                              As Master Gildor told we must be on the watch on other fake fans who like to make money through piracy… but it will be hard to control… I will help if it would be possible… have a nice evening to all…. tomorrow could be another great day… :)

                              #10798
                              Turambar
                              Participant

                                OK I think everybody knows at this point that Master H. won´t re-fond his design house at the west coast of south africa with recasting project. Don´t we ?!

                                No, the piracy began with the price that different miniatures reached and the following greed of potential sellers.
                                Why should I make a recast if I do not know exactly that I earn a lot of money. The M 16 – one of the most ugliest miniatures from the mithril range ever-
                                has reached aboud 350 Euros!!! 350 euros!!! A flight plus return to Samos/Greece. (that was in 2006)
                                Hey, let´ s make a recast and become part of the money-earning-factory . . .

                                I have never understood why it was possible to buy four sets of the Iron-Hills Dwarves . . .
                                I feel the need to tell, that I have bought ONE set, why should I bought another one or evan more . . .
                                So what is the reason for a person to buy more than one set . . .

                                Everybody knows also, that Master Estel and H. are not the problem! I want to know why these people here inside MMP were used as a warning and not the right individuals.

                                Yes, better returning to normality. Let´s talk about clean water, about what is found on that ebay-thing and about painting projects of miniatures which are
                                hopefully no recasts.

                                Sorry for being upset also . . .

                                #10799
                                Gildor
                                MMP Elder

                                  I don’t think neither estel or holger are responsible of anything but there is a “bad mood” and serious matters at hands and well some links seem to have been done by the Man… He has been preoccupied for quite a long time because of the ebay unfairness and open way to piracy…

                                  let’s hope we find a solution for future sales that prevent such things… I really hope we can …

                                  for the time being, I suggest that all of us wait for Chris answer to my suggestions…. and we’ll see…

                                  Once again, such matters could have been avoided if I had been warned beforehand… I could have suggested my solutions way before now to prevent what has just happened…

                                  let’s not look at the past, please let’s enjoy good company and share some fresh drinks , please gentlemen, sit down around a good old table and let Nob bring us some good ol’beer

                                  #10805
                                  Gildor
                                  MMP Elder

                                    (follows-up my post in the Taproom) I don’t think Estel has done anything wrong. as the taproom and prancing pony are a public place that can be searched directly by google I’d like people to clean the names of people that have done nothing wrong… we can always discuss such matters in other places, in private threads…
                                    For example, the piracy topic could be moved in the Tharbad section, not in the Prancing Pony one…

                                    I will do that, so that only members of MMP can see and post about this… Actually it is important that only “general matters” be posted on the Prancing Pony category.
                                    All sales announcements, offers for trade/sale, polemics such as this piracy problem should remain internal.

                                    #10806
                                    Theobald
                                    Participant

                                      Yes, Gildor, I think this would be a good first step in the right direction (moving those threads to a more private place). If you could do that, please?
                                      And I think you’re also right in reminding us to be more careful with what we say in the open threads. Thank you.

                                      #10807
                                      protozeus
                                      Participant

                                        Wise “move”, Master Gildor. I also hope that the early slightly bitter tone of the discussion (which was laudably corrected since then) will not lead to any member leaving your fantastic forum.

                                        #10810
                                        Thingol
                                        Participant

                                          I think that you must program some topics with themes like that to be opened only for active members with 50 + posts or replies + special permission with special password or something….. Than we would have a better look on topics like this one…. is it possible to arrange… like that because of everybody can without any problem make an account and look into our secret topics… 50 post + 1…. Almost all already have 50+1

                                          #10812
                                          Gildor
                                          MMP Elder

                                            yes I also hope master Protozeus… but it requires some vigilance in what we say now… that’s why I will make some changes (see chambers of Mandos)

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                                          MMP Mithril in Middle-Earth The Marketplace of Tharbad C. Tubb Mithril auctions and Recast/Pirating