Christmas Riddle 2009

This topic has 256 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 15 years ago by Theobald.

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November 15, 2009 at 5:20 pm #7853
protozeus
Participant
The title was “On Fairy-stories”, as an Andrew Lang Lecture (1938), published in a bit extended form later in “Essays presented to Charles Williams” (1947), and again later as part of “Tree and Leaf”.
November 15, 2009 at 5:33 pm #7856
Theobald
Participant
Hahhh … got it, Master Protozeus …. TREE AND LEAVE !
very excellent answer that was indeed … rhuoommm …
That ‘Tree and Leaf’-essay later (1964) was first published as one part of some of some Tolkien’s writings. What are the titles of the other two included in that volume?
(please mind the spelling)
Hey, Master Protozeus, I just want to tease you a bit more
November 15, 2009 at 5:39 pm #7857
protozeus
Participant
Originally it was only accompanied only by “Leaf by Niggle”, but later also “Mythopoeia”.
November 15, 2009 at 5:56 pm #7859
Theobald
Participant
‘Leaf by Niggle’ absolutely is correct again, as it’s the last part of the summary of Tree and Leaf I was talking about. Though in 1964 there were two more of Tolkien’s writings released together with ‘Tree and Leaf’ in the same book. What are the titles of the other two ‘writings’
I think you’re very close now …
Mind that I could also ask about the headlines of the three chapters of the third piece of Tolkien’s writings published in that book …
November 15, 2009 at 6:07 pm #7860
Gildor
MMP Elder
actually if we have to be exact the poem originally comes from a book by Gower… “Confessio Amantis” or the “Tales of the Seven Deadly Sins”,Book 5, Chapter “Sacrilegiousness of Lovers”, line 7065 to 7075…

it was only quoted… by JRRT…
November 15, 2009 at 6:42 pm #7863
Theobald
Participant
Well, to be correct myself, Master Gildor, I have to say that you’re right again.
It was the ‘Confessio Amantis’, v. 7065 ff our Master Tolkien referred to in quoting that passage. I admire your knowledge about the lines … 7065 is correct (that’s where the quotation starts).
Alas, them Elves do always remember everything they came across.
Yes, it was only quoted by Tolkien in Tree and Leaf … mind that I intruduced this riddle with a quotation?
November 15, 2009 at 6:54 pm #7864
Theobald
Participant
So, what to do now ? … we have to give away some more points, methinks. We should mind them sleepy lads all over the world.
As I pointed out before that ‘Tree and Leaf’-essay was first published in 1964 right?
Then with that publishing two more writings by Master Tolkien were provided in the same book.
“Tree and Leaf” we already found out to be one of the three.
What are the other two called?
And just to make it a bit more difficult …
Who can recall the three chapters of the third writing in that edition … ah, that’s simple, as once you know the title of the first chapter you of course will know the other two, right?
Let’s just have some fun ….
November 15, 2009 at 7:06 pm #7866
Gildor
MMP Elder
(I’ll keep from answering, I have answered too much already, others may want to have their chances too so I pass here besides I am off taking care of little baby good luck everybody
November 15, 2009 at 7:13 pm #7868
Theobald
Participant
Huoommmm … this has become a bit too special … I could have also asked you what I said to my friend last Friday at 9.30. This riddle has become ridiculous. It’s me and three others riddleing in the dark. Maybe this tree might better take its leave. Tree + leaf …
November 15, 2009 at 7:59 pm #7870
regalrick
Participant
For fun Master Ent; sometimes I think I know but discover later I was wrong and only know I think. I also know of “The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth” including ” The death of Beorhtnoth”,”The homecoming of Beorhtnoth,Beorthhelm’s son” and “Ofermod”.I am going to guess you said Hello in German to your friend last Friday at 9.30
November 15, 2009 at 9:17 pm #7872
Theobald
Participant
All three parts of the Beorhtnoth are nearly exactly named, Master Regalrick.
But what is the third of Tolkien’s writings in that volume?
So far we have the first, which is ‘Tree and Leaf’ and the third, which is ‘The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth’.
Anyway, I still wonder who will volunteer to sort out about the points to give for all of this.
About what I said to my friend you were wrong (but it’s not part of this riddle). I just said, “Kannst du mir mal den Bunnahabhain geben?”
November 16, 2009 at 9:02 am #7883
erchamion
Participant
Theobald wrote:

But what is the third of Tolkien’s writings in that volume?

Smith of Wootton Major

Theobald wrote:

Kannst du mir mal den Bunnahabhain geben?

Time? That’s exactly what I hadn´t yesterday to respond ….
Anyway, the word “time” for an Ent is difficult to define clearly
November 17, 2009 at 5:54 pm #7886
Theobald
Participant
Master Erchamion is right with this answer.
Well, now it seems to be up to me to sort out about this riddle … or is there anybody around to help me with this? I have to admit that at the moment I cannot spend much time on this … but there’s some time laft until the second riddle has to be put, right?
So at the beginning there were three questions, if I remember well. So there should be given one point for each correct answer. Then I might have confused with putting more and more questions in between. So one might consider if there might be the option of giving half-points (or whatever you might call it) to some of those answers.
On the other hand I would really not like to complicate all this.
You see, one point doesn’t count much in the Ent, as I know the third part of the riddle. By now I’m even considering to leave (not leaf) out the second part of it … that would allow all of us more time being spent on more serious matters.
So let me know, please.
Ahem, so far no one was interested if there will be a prize. Strange that is.
November 17, 2009 at 6:25 pm #7888
Gildor
MMP Elder
the fun of playing , master tree that’s the most important thing

as to how to count for the riddle and remain fair… I wish I could have a “riddle” module for this forum but I doubt there is even one actually and besides that would mean “hidden answers” anyway…
you should add weight to some aspects of the riddles :
I mean…
-give a total of points that is not fixed at the beginning especially… but in the end, it’s the person with most point who wins and so on

give points for
-1 point for participating (trying to answer, no matter the answer (one point for participation to each riddle)
-10 points for being the first person to give the right answer to one part of the question (if several question to the riddle)
-decrease the number of points by 1 for each day passing without an answer to a given question (thus if no answer the first day, then the second day, giving the answer gives only 9 points… I used the number 10 assuming the second riddle would be given ten days after the first one, in which case, if nobody found an answer, the riddle would reward no point… this way, we are sure to don’t have a riddle go on for eternity… and be in time for christmas…

this system assures you that there will be less and less ex-aequo maybe? and also is fair towards those who would have an answer that “quick” people have not found or not answered fast enough….

there is also the option to open a thread, post your riddle, and LOCK the topic for one day, leaving people to think about it without the possibility to post during one full day… and the day after… unlock the topic and then it is a “race”… but people would be warned and know what it is about one day before… that would be fair too…

well these are all suggestions… indeed that can’t satisfy everybody.. but all in all it is trying to add fairness..
November 18, 2009 at 4:54 pm #7894
Theobald
Participant
Thank you for offering your help, Master Gildor. Though it seems to be a bit too much complicated for an ordinary Ent to calculate like that. I will try to sort out later this week as I don’t have the time for this at the moment … I have to cope with some other non-Mithril-matters these days.
November 20, 2009 at 5:27 pm #7917
Theobald
Participant
Let me try to sort this out, please.
First of all I learned that the 24-hour deadline did not work at all. I told you before, but I just gave in to some queries trying to do something like this. Just imagine Chris Tubb selling his next set of Dwarves at such conditions … I hope you know what I mean.
As for the first part of this year’s riddle I would like to suggest two possibilities to judge the entries:
There were three questions put. There were three correct answers:

– regalrick :
was right concerning the author (he was not right about the described person and he
was not exact enough about Tolkien’s essay (title) = 1 point

– Gildor was absolutely correct answering the 1st question (who is described) = 1 point

– protozeus could name and explain ‘Tree and Leaf’ = 1 point

Then, well I was into it and provided more questions that originally were not intended. That’s why I would like to suggest to give some half-points for having you confused.

Gildor was so precise with the origin, as he named the “Confessio Amantis”, that I would like to give him half a point for that additional answer.
Regalrick answered one of the additional questions very precisely (about ‘The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth’ – and he corrctly named all three parts (which is easy once you know what it’s about) so to me that could also be half a point.
Then Erchamion answered correctly naming ‘Smith of Wootton Major’ – which to me also could be half a point.

So let me summarize, please.
Now there are two possibilities to count:

Regalrick 1P
Gildor 1 P
protozeus 1 P

or:

Regalrick 1 + 1/2 P
Gildor 1 + 1/2 P
Protozeus 1 P
Erchamion 1/2 P

Please let me know your comments about this and tell me if we should have the additional answers being counted as half-points, so to say.
There’s time to discuss this, as there’s always a fortnight in between them this year’s riddles – I just want to be fair.

Alas, I just hope I don’t get on your nerves ……………
November 20, 2009 at 8:17 pm #7918
erchamion
Participant
Tree Friend, don´t worry!.
As Gildor stated above, this does not stop being a game. Any formula you use to rate is correct. The important thing is to have fun with the riddles. And that, I assure you, that you are getting …
November 21, 2009 at 6:23 am #7931
protozeus
Participant
Though I also knew about “Confessio Amantis”, but did not consider it as still relevant, half points (variant 2) are fine from my perspective. This way additional interesting knowledge “bits” may get accumulated here.
November 21, 2009 at 11:15 am #7937
Theobald
Participant
😡 😡 😡
I’m so sorry to tell you that this year’s riddle has to be cancelled …… as I just read the new Mithril-newsletter (which I also didn’t get directly today) ….
all was in vain, I’m afraid
November 21, 2009 at 11:55 am #7938
Theobald
Participant
Yes, I have to explain this, I know. So let me try, please.
I thought of this year’s riddle being my last one. I structured it similar to last year’s riddle. First to have a quotation (some ‘background-knowledge’ being needed to solve it).
Second a drawing by Tolkien depicting trees (further ‘background-knowledge’ needed to answer that one).
Third ….. you remember I used the word lottery lately, do you? … well, third was the idea of providing a picture of the new MX-vignette made by Chris after the first successful casting and letting you guess the names of the Dwarves (from left to right – one guess per competitor only).
That would have made it easy to decide about the points to be given.
I decided about this many weeks (months?) ago, when I asked Chis – while he was still sculpting the vignette – about the “who-is-who”. I asked him not to broadcast this. He let me know about the “who-is-who”, that’s why I decided to take this as the third and final part of this year’s Christmas riddle as this would have given anyone taking part in it a fair chance to get some points (as there would have been no special knowledge to be needed to answer it – that’s why I called it a lottery).
Until this morning I was sure this might have been a nice idea giving everybody a chance to get the price. But in the latest newsletter Master O’Brian reveiled those answers. I couldn’t know about this, believe me, please.
Sorry, Chris, I have to quote from your email from 16.11.09
“As soon as the first castings are ready I will assemble the piece for photography and will let you have a picture. By the way I have not reveiled to anyone else, who all the Dwarves are (as you requested). I will send you a diagram with the photo.”
I hope you all understand now, why I had to cancel that riddle …

Just to point out: I really do not blame Master O’Brian for publishing this in the newsletter, not at all. He did his best to promote the vignette and he definitely could not know my ideas combining the release of that piece with my weird Christmas-riddles.

So, what’s left to say? Yes, the prize would have been one of the 30 extra-castings.
I feel so sorry about this and I do hope you’re not that much disappointed that I cancelled the riddle – what else could I do, as there’s no better idea in my mind to have another ‘third part of the riddle’ that would enable every competitor to gain points. There’s no time left to think about it, as there also are non-Mithril-matters which keep me busy.
What’s left?
A riddle turning out not to be a riddle anymore …. and a vignette … that’s all there is.
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