future MS releases (for members eyes only)

MMP Mithril in Middle-Earth The Secret Vaults of Angrenost future MS releases (for members eyes only)

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  • #32536
    Gildor
    MMP Elder

      I don’t care how Chris Tubb is called actually , I supposed it was factual “The Man” implied Chris, you could also call him “Phaeton” lol that’s his nickname after all..

      “The Chris” would be more problematic, my name is Chris, Turambar name is Chris…

      about collaborating with the “suggestion winner”, THIS, he does, provided the winner communicates with him at all, else he will work on his own… In the past, I know from experience I have exchanged a lot with him on my own suggestions and he remade some things from time to time…. it’s the collaboration with a “group” that is not fit for him…

      #32538
      Maenas
      Participant

        On the nickname issue:
        Long ago I thought it was a silly thing calling him “the man” because somewhat reminds me of a “Voldemort” or “Sauron” thing, and it was a little “obscure” way for me to call him like that, but then on the long term I understood that it was a respectful or an affective way of speaking of him. Now that Barli has perfectly explained the issue I can now see that my second though was correct. In Spanish the equivalence would be “jefe” or “maestro” or even in some particular cases “sensei” like the Japanese do. So there is no real problem for me in calling him whichever respectful way.

        On the input issue:
        Maybe a group of people could drive him mad, because every individual has his own personal taste, and that in the end, can drive into problems.
        I am a graphic designer (out of middle earth) and although I like to hear people thoughts, hearing too much can sometimes be very disappointing, so filtering the informations given and trying to make good decisions on lots of input can completely disrupt “the creative process” and stall it forever. I can feel the point of Chris doing that.

        So to speak, the important part filtering the info can be very frustrating, or completely “game changing”, but it is a really difficult thing to do, because an artist has to be in the mood for it. Wanting to explain myself a little further, given an equation like: “put more red in this page” sharing your project with lots of people can lead to “put more orange in the page” witch in reality is similar but not the equation problem at all.
        (You can exchange “red” and “orange” in the equation above for a “walking orc” and a “running orc” and maybe you will understand it better)

        #32539
        Barliman
        Participant

          Very observant, Master Maenas. All artists tend to be touchy about their own work, and suggestions or – even worse – criticism is not easy to accept. I’m a writer, an artist and a typographic designer, so I know all to well that comments by other people are sometimes not very welcome! So my sympathies lie with The Man in this situation. It’s why the only times I’ve passed an opinion on his work is when he’s specifically asked me to, which isn’t often.

          #32541
          Gildor
          MMP Elder

            well as I said, I really think he appreciates and I may dare to say crave for feedback but on “finished works”, how his work is “received”, in order to change or alter things for the future, but I really can easily understand it would be really difficult to be part of the creation process of a figurine , as a group, while it is being processed.

            MX figurines, or GF figurines work on the basis that the MX customer/suggestion winner work with Chris on a one-to-one exchange, and that’s fine. Providing those exchanges can be constructive indeed. but I can’t imagine things being otherwise…

            as for “the Man” nickname”, I agree with Maenas and Barli…. I don’t see it as “The Man in the dark” (or the Cigarette smoking Man, in Xfiles, for example), which means “clouded in mystery” and dark schemes) but rather as “The Man in charge”, the “Man who knows”, the “worthy Man”…. a “Chef”, or Master, Meister?

            In this way he is more “Our Man”, than “The Man” ;)

            #32544
            twrich
            Participant

              I have had several figures win the monthly GF selection. And I have been involved in two MX projects, one as a group and one on my own. I have never had a problem with a lack of communication from Chris–I don’t mind “the man” reference, but I don’t refer to him as such, he is Chris Tubb to me.

              Has anyone not had their suggestions for pose, weapons, features, etc. considered by Chris on a figure they suggested that has won a monthly vote?

              There is a point where an artist has an idea in mind and it is hard to change their opinion, often because they’ve already invested time in the design and become emotionally attached to it.

              PS. Gildor–I am “The Man in the Dark,” not Chris!! ;-)

              #32545
              Gildor
              MMP Elder

                I know Twrich ;) that was a private joke intended , I see you noticed ;)

                well, I know that Chris will expect and wait for some more information from suggestion winner for the realisation of the figure and if not well he will proceed on his own . One example was the herbalist lady submitted by Luthien4tinuvielle. Luthien provided the picture of her visage so that it can be adapted in the figurines, but as for the rest of the body, which some of us (including me) did not approve because there was nothing in it showing it was actually an herbalist, Chris never receive any remark, feedback or suggestion from Luthien who either accepted it this way, or did not care at all, and thus Chris proceeded…

                In the end, I remember exchange about this topic with Chris who said that Luthien never expressed concerns about the pose when he “proposed” it, so he carried on…

                And this illustrates clearly why he would never want to work with a comitee but rather with a single person… Because you can’t satisfy everybody… and within a commitee there would never be consensus and it would take months of debate to agree on something before proceeding to create… You have to be ready, as a sculptor, to not please everybody, and as a collector/customer to not be pleased by certain releases even if you voted for it…

                I think THAT’s why it is important to really clearly describe our suggestions in detail when we submit them, not only the name and quote from the books but also HOW we’d want them represented, because we also vote on THIS aspect…

                #32546
                shadyt
                Participant

                  twrich said “Has anyone not had their suggestions for pose, weapons, features, etc. considered by Chris on a figure they suggested that has won a monthly vote?”

                  I usually do not try to have additional input into the making of the figure after a suggestion wins because I do not wish to interrupt his creative process. The one exception to this was the “Black troll man of Far Harad” I sent Chris an email a day after the winner was selected with some suggestions and comments about how the miniature might look. He never responded and he went with the MERP description rather than the more human looking suggestions that I had sent him. I still like the miniature very much.

                  #32547
                  Mornedhel
                  Participant

                    I asked Luthien4Tinuvielle about your statement. She transmitted me an e-mail with all the conversation history and I must strongly disagree with you Master Gildor.

                    #32548
                    Mornedhel
                    Participant

                      AT the end she got the pictures when all sculpting work was done.

                      #32549
                      Gildor
                      MMP Elder

                        then I made a quiproquo with another suggestion and that’s more than possible… though my memory seems to escape me but I did not invent things.

                        I trust you entirely on this Mornedhel, you give proof enough

                        still there is that, which is factual (just in case any may thing I’m a mythomaniac… ) :

                        Quote:
                        I prefer not to share the image with others as I cannot make figures which are designed by committee, but you can at least tell them that I have taken their comments on board and will act on them. feedback is always helpful. Also I have always tried to encourage people to include sketches for poses and costumes etc with their suggestions. It is sometimes difficult for me when the monthly suggestions says something like ” I will leave it to Chris to interpret this as he wishes” and then the winner is surprised when my rendering is not what they had in mind. I found the pics you sent me (from Arthadan?) particularly helpful as it showed what was needed

                        I was simply retelling this (I am quoting this as there is nothing very new or sensible in this quote) . This was sent to me after the synthesis I had made, including all the pics you had provided on this forum, gentlemen.

                        Well I suppose there is nothing more to say except that I have learned from years, that sometimes One mail or two (or three) gets totally “eluded” or as if never sent to Chris, he either chooses not to reply, or did not see the mail itself… Even for me in years, that’s been quite upseting or frustrating at times when you ask something three times and you don’t get answer on this topic on the response… as if it was never asked… but everybody is different :) and we have to accept people as they are :)

                        #32550
                        Tolwen
                        Participant
                          Gildor Inglorion wrote:
                          well as I said, I really think he appreciates and I may dare to say crave for feedback but on “finished works”, how his work is “received”, in order to change or alter things for the future, …

                          Well, that would be an opportunity to get on an old discussion about design issues in Mithril minis almost from the beginning (concerning consistency with the sources), but as has been discussed thoroughly, these won’t be changed anyway. So at least for me the greatest “issues” that could be changed are indeed on the list of not negotiable things.

                          BTW: In the recently published Issue of Other Minds magazine (#15), there is a contribution about miniatures made for Middle-earth from the very beginnings.

                          Cheers
                          Tolwen

                          #32552
                          Barliman
                          Participant
                            Tolwen wrote:
                            Well, that would be an opportunity to get on an old discussion about design issues in Mithril minis almost from the beginning (concerning consistency with the sources)…

                            I agree to a sizeable extent regarding the lack of consistency with JRRT’s vision – Mithril figures’ ‘accuracy’ was compromised from the outset by its adherence to MERP/ICE’s dubious interpretation of many things. But another complication must always be that how any one individual ‘sees’ Tolkien’s characters after reading his books is unlikely to agree with everyone or anyone else’s. As the old adage says, it’s hard to please all of the people all of the time.

                            #32553
                            Gildor
                            MMP Elder

                              I can but agree 200% master Barliman… my own ideology of tolkien characters being totally biased because I discovered the books, at the same time I discovered the figurines from Chris… I read it for the first time, and began to paint the figurines at quite exactly the same period. So I am too subjective about this aspect.

                              You must add to that that I knew MERP and especially Angus McBride illustrations BEFORE even reading the books, which makes it even harder…

                              #32556
                              Tolwen
                              Participant
                                Barliman wrote:
                                Tolwen wrote:
                                Well, that would be an opportunity to get on an old discussion about design issues in Mithril minis almost from the beginning (concerning consistency with the sources)…

                                But another complication must always be that how any one individual ‘sees’ Tolkien’s characters after reading his books is unlikely to agree with everyone or anyone else’s. As the old adage says, it’s hard to please all of the people all of the time.

                                Yes, interpretation is one thing. But there are also several instances where we have a very clear and unmistakeable statement in the books about a topic, but this is simply ignored in the miniature(s). I could more or less live comfortably with differing interpretations where the evidence is ambiguous, but expect it to stick closely to the description if there is one. And the lack of the latter is what bothers me – not the former.

                                Cheers
                                Thomas

                                #32558
                                Gildor
                                MMP Elder

                                  well interpretation is indeed done when there is no elements or proofs to say how things really are.

                                  Here I understand what master Barliman says as ‘how one individual sees Tolkien characters”… it’s not interpretation by lack of knowledge, it’s just how you see them.

                                  In justice, if an evidence is brought to justice “too late” after the case is done, there are two options, either you reopen the case, or there is “prescription” (now that’s the same for “former figurines” that can’t be remade of course)… and there comes the matter of continuity… which has been discussed at length already…

                                  I don’t say it’s good and I understand and respect the fact it can be upsetting, but I also understand the point of view…

                                  there are lots of things that we know about Tolkien works that come from later works (HoME, the Letters etc) and are not included in the original book (such as the overall shape of Arda) but there are others we know for certain … Did it bother Peter Jackson from taking all his freedoms when he made the movies? or GW to adapt them in figurines, or even Middle Earth Enterprise to refuse licence for things thare were completly and outrageously wrong? No, they accepted it…

                                  Now I understand that is bothering… but it’s perfectly legit :(

                                  I would find it totally odd for myself to have , let’s say a new version of Isildur in …. chain… with all the former ones in plate… I would agree on the “genuinity” of the things but in Mithril that woud simply feel… deeply wrong…
                                  I can’t help but consider mithril Series as a whole, and not individually. I have to look at my glasscase and say in a second : “This one is Elendil” because of his “aspect” in the mithril range… that would change everything if the continuity was broken down.

                                  #32559
                                  Tolwen
                                  Participant

                                    We have discussed this indeed and know each other POV well. Personally I don’t care at all for continuity in this case, if it compromises an improvement in the range concerning careful consideration of the sources.

                                    We don’t have to get into that any deeper as it has been discussed more than enough. For me, I am by now seriously considering of leaving the GF, as it doesn’t develop in those aspects that are most important for me. The characters that I favour win in any case (seldomly) or not at all (mostly). Thus my participation doesn’t make a difference and I can still decide on a case by case base whether I buy anything or not.
                                    I don’t defend the GW (or PJ) design per se, as there were lots of less well done things as well, but for some things they are IMO indeed better than Mithril’s versions (for various reasons). The standstill (=continuity) by Mithril in – IMHO – important areas is indeed frustrating for me and the reason for this and the previous post.

                                    And as I see only minimal or no development in the Mithril design as alluded above, it’s one more reason to get a bit more detached from Mithril (not totally, but with a bit more distance) and look more to other companies for (IMO) better fitting Middle-earth miniatures – even if they don’t have that label sticking on them.

                                    Cheers
                                    Tolwen

                                    #33074
                                    Milo
                                    Participant

                                      I just read Michael message about lack of production for MS new releases.

                                      I may not understand his words, which I doubt, but please english natives, let me know…

                                      It seems CT did not send any sculpt to the company since MS615 (which I think was annouced being scultped back winter this year).

                                      Am I wrong ? Does anyone know if Chris is still working on future mithil releases ?

                                      #33075
                                      Barliman
                                      Participant

                                        I’ve “lost sight of the ball” over the past few months, but do I get the impression that Chris has stopped working on everything?

                                        #33128
                                        Barliman
                                        Participant

                                          Ah, news of figures at last in today’s message from Michael!! – MS615 Golasgil released next week, and MS612 Merien in November. Love the Goilasgil figure. Excellent news at last!

                                          Shame I can’t pre-order Golasgil today while I know I have some money available – just tried, but he has no link yet on the website.

                                          #33131
                                          Milo
                                          Participant

                                            This is good news.2 holes to be filled then.

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                                          MMP Mithril in Middle-Earth The Secret Vaults of Angrenost future MS releases (for members eyes only)